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An Elder Statesman's List.
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04-14-2014, 11:38 PM #11
Turbo AC Administrator
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Status: Offline Posts:338 Threads:86 Joined:Mar 2014
PF and Slick are way too high on meek's list. Fordus is definitely better than Ominous too. I would put Kor as #4 and move Tech-Man up.

Never seen Nanaman play but does anyone know where he fits in? I think he used to be #1 but that was like 10-15 years ago.

Spark Administrator
Founder of CTA and Gladiators

04-15-2014, 01:41 AM #12
Fordus Still n00b
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Status: Offline Posts:170 Threads:27 Joined:Apr 2014
Nice write-up. Was cool to read all that history and analysis. Disagree with a few things but you definitely demonstrated a good understanding and knowledge of the history of the game. I commend you.

04-15-2014, 02:45 AM #13
Dario Still n00b
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Status: Offline Posts:134 Threads:4 Joined:Mar 2014
This post is just more about the process (at least when I was involved) of making this list.

Disclaimer: I don't know if the author is still hiding his identity, but I'll respect that (at least publicly) until he decides not to.

When we started working on this list, the biggest challenges were obviously comparing eras and formulating criteria. From my understanding of ARC's history (admittedly limited pre-WON), there are at least 4 different eras of competition on this game:

Era 1: Pre-resolution change (possibly split this one into more than 1)
Era 2: Post-resolution change but before the emergence of Mage
Era 3: Post-Mage (pretty long time frame that could probably be divided into more than 1 era, but I don't know where the clear division would be)
Era 4: Spark (anything after SPL2010 was pretty much thrown out -- sorry Faur/Puffball)

The resolution change brought with it the possibility of new styles of play. Mage himself revolutionized how we play the game; after a couple of seasons of getting destroyed by Mage, the general ARC public began to attempt to mimic everything he does on the field.

The switch from ARC to Spark isn't just about the switch itself but many of the new features and map changes. The last APL on ARC was played in the old version of GO if I remember correctly with the very restricted bottom area of the map. The first SPL was played on the first "modern" edit of GO which opened things up considerably and provided a quantum leap in terms of strategy, playstyle, and pacing. Spark also meant smoother gameplay and the end of air damage, as I believe damage is now registered client-side as opposed to server-side (I don't know if it's as simple as this, but it's how I wrap my mind around it as a non-coding layman). Another new feature on Spark was hit detection. For the first time ever, we knew which shots were landing on our opponents. The guessing game was over, and we could finally fine-tune our shot selection with practice. I think this feature resulted in higher quality shooting on Spark, and thus, out of necessity, higher quality dodging than in previous years.

Having said all this, we decided that more recent success trumps success only in one of the earlier eras (This explains why Toughshot, Slick, and Sebek ultimately made the top 10). However, we quickly realized that players rarely fit into just one era of play. Astrok is the prime example; he dominated era 1 and 2 and remained competitive (on the losing side) at the beginning of era 3. Towards the end of era 3 and all of era 4, Astrok has been mostly irrelevant in terms of competing at the highest level. Also, it just doesn't "feel right" to leave Astrok off a list of the top 10 greatest ARCers ever. Astrok was a major point of contention, and many other players stemmed from this conversation (Parrotman comes to mind -- though his success is more recent).

I'm sure many of you would argue that Astrok should be on the list and Parrotman should be higher, and ultimately, the author of the list had to make a decision one way or the other. One limitation is that none of the collaborators in the early process of this list had extensive knowledge of just how dominant some of the early players were or weren't.

It would be interesting to see a collaborative effort for a list like this that includes input from players that have seen it all such as Astrok, Parrotman, and Nano, but I doubt we'll ever see it.
This post was last modified: 04-15-2014, 02:58 AM by Dario.

-love dar

04-15-2014, 02:52 AM #14
meek n00b
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Status: Offline Posts:36 Threads:0 Joined:Apr 2014
Its hard to make a list. But in my book you have Mage as the best, then you can always argue the 2-5 spot, but the way I have seen Slick and Sebek perform, I know by heart that they are better than anyone else on that list.

9.9 Mage
9.8 Sebek Slick Toughshot
9.7 Omin Ela Ford, Pman, Techman

That's really how my list would start. But even that rating system is hard..

All I can say is I dont overrate Slick or Sebek, they were just better than anyone else I faced.

I would have an easier time facing Sebek in a 1v1 than Puffball, cause PB would just rush and wreck me.
But I dont think they are on the same level.

Master and Grandmaster.

Just my 2 cents

04-15-2014, 04:08 AM #15
Fordus Still n00b
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Status: Offline Posts:170 Threads:27 Joined:Apr 2014
Trust your heart Meek. But remember it's just *your* heart Smile

04-15-2014, 04:12 AM #16
meek n00b
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Status: Offline Posts:36 Threads:0 Joined:Apr 2014
<3 ofc Smile

04-15-2014, 04:13 AM #17
Turbo AC Administrator
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Status: Offline Posts:338 Threads:86 Joined:Mar 2014
I agree with Ford, I believe you're judging players rankings based on how they perform against you.

(Surprised Ford hasn't come back to me on KK)
This post was last modified: 04-15-2014, 04:13 AM by Turbo.

Spark Administrator
Founder of CTA and Gladiators

04-15-2014, 04:21 AM #18
meek n00b
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Status: Offline Posts:36 Threads:0 Joined:Apr 2014
If we're on the subject of how people perform against me.

KK doesnt make top 20, sry.

He was good 1v1, thats it.

He got trashed in every game he played in vs me in TM and in V!. True story.

04-15-2014, 04:22 AM #19
Fordus Still n00b
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Status: Offline Posts:170 Threads:27 Joined:Apr 2014
We all do that too. I never personally found Sebek that tough to play against and he probably wouldn't crack top10 on my list...but if other good players did, then I trust that as a testament to his skill level.

I think KK was one of the game's best duelers, but dueling is a very isolated specific skill and he had far too many flaws as a player for him to have been a worthwhile enough 4v4 player to merit being mentioned among the likes of techman, parrotman, etc.

I think after Mage, it's far too close to give any kind of meaningful order to things.

In terms of longevity and consistently being a top player, Techman Parrotman and Nano stand out to me.

In terms of the very best the game has seen at their peak skill level, Toughshot and Elasesino stand out to me. Slick to a lesser extent because he wasn't as smart as the other top players, but boy could he light up the field. In the TM series he was practically the same as Mage in terms of a fragging threat.

But there are so many that deserve honorable mention. My TBWA clanmates Omin, Kor, Solo...the other CaDF starters like Sebek and Puffball. Some of the TM players. I'm sure I'm forgetting a few.
This post was last modified: 04-15-2014, 04:41 AM by Fordus.

04-15-2014, 03:08 PM #20
Unreal n00b
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Status: Offline Posts:89 Threads:2 Joined:Mar 2014
It would be ignorant to say that you base any level of ranking other than your own experiences (majority of those being the play against yourself) ...I can't speak to much of this, yet we can all agree Mage was # 1






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