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04-25-2014, 04:33 AM #21
Dario Still n00b
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Status: Offline Posts:134 Threads:4 Joined:Mar 2014
I'll copy what Yoshi did just to add some more to this conversation.

1. Sebek -- This is where he belongs among today's current players. I think I had him #2, but it was just a matter of which playstyle I fear more: his or puffball's. Not much to say.

2. Puffball -- I would say it's almost a pick 'em between Sebek and Puffball. Puffball's style is that of a more explosive fragger, and it's pretty apparent that he trolls in a lot of CTAs yet still delivers. I think I had him #1.

3. Parrotman -- I had Pman #5; he certainly belongs up here. The 3rd or 4th best player in CaDF is still the best player in almost any clan not named TBWA. I don't know if his play has declined since the early 2000s or if the rest of us have just caught up to him, but he's not QUITE as dominant as he once was. However, he is still so good and has such a unique playstyle that can be adapted to fit any map.

4. Drue -- I admire that Drue wants to win more than anyone it seems (even these CTA games that don't even matter). I've already made it clear that I think he's a little overrated but he is first in line on my list of players outside of what I consider to be the absolute best of the best. I think he's somewhat one-dimensional in that he's an excellent fragger close range and mediocre to good if you have any amount of space to fight him. He is certainly a CTA pubstomp player in that his playstyle allows him to blow people up with the likes of Yoshi and Puffball.

5. Yoshi -- When I first started playing with Yoshi a few years ago, I couldn't believe the skillset he had developed playing primarily basewars. It surprised me even more when I saw how well his skills translated to any map. I think he has natural fragging ability that most of us can only dream about. I still consider him an unrefined player, but his skillset is so overwhelming that he's still a top 5 player in today's game.

6. Akma -- I'm not on the akma bandwagon quite as much as others. I think he's a good player and deserving of top 10 status or maybe just outside top 10. It's hard to put my finger on it, but something about the way he plays seems like his primary objective isn't to win every game. Stylistically, he does give me trouble 1v1 with what I would call a weird playstyle.

7. Astrok -- Underrated. Pretty much everything I said about Pman can be said about him. Astrok does give me more trouble personally than probably any player; this probably comes from the fact that I've tried to steal so many elements of his game over the years. I appreciate that his playstyle isn't as technically demanding as the power fraggers like Sebek, Puffball, etc; while this limits how high he can be placed on a list like this, his big picture view of every game is top notch compared to almost anyone. If you want to be half-ass active yet still a good player, watch Astrok play and try to appreciate all the nuances of his game.

8. Tengo -- I think the best way to describe Tengo at this point is a poor man's Drue. I think tengo isn't quite as one-dimensional as Drue, but he doesn't offer quite as much in the close range fragging department as Drue either. His style of play suits almost every popular map. Lately his attitude has been dogshit. Maybe he's just trolling and is being taken seriously, but I don't like the idea of flaming your teammates the instant you lose a game. Tengo, you're gonna burn yourself out if you stress over every fucking CTA game like I've seen lately. It's just a CTA game; it's designed for you to lose half of them.

9. Unreal -- I think Unreal should be rated somewhere in the area with Drue, Tengo, and akma. He's more of a jack of all trades yet master of none, so his play might get overlooked sometimes. I think he's proficient in almost every phase of the game, but his game smarts (for lack of a better term) don't match up with players like Astrok and Parrotman, his close range play doesn't match up with Drue/Tengo, and his medium to long range doesn't match up with a lot of players. If he was able to improve every area of his game, he would be top 5 easily; I don't see it suddenly happening after 15+ years of playing though.

10. Dario -- I obviously think I'm much better than #10. However, I can see where I'm rated so low based on how little I play now and how much I don't care competitively anymore. So I'm certainly not deserving of being any higher, and honestly I don't deserve to be in the top 10 either. This may not be a valid excuse, but I have become such a casual player and don't care about winning a CTA game in the same sense that I care about winning leagues. I think I was the 3rd or 4th best player in the last gladiators league and in the last GO tournament, so I'm really hoping that the next gladiators league includes maps and rules that motivate me to come out and play. Until then, I'm gonna play a few CTAs a month, watch a lot more CTAs, and try to develop some more maps.

11. Genocide -- Does he play at all?

12. Radar -- I would consider him very one-dimensional. He's very similar to Fight3r and Terr0r. They are all good at shooting and dodging long range, but they don't seem to advance their position nearly enough. Merlin-esque if you guys remember him from back in the day. So obviously I think he's very strong in some maps but not so much in others.

13. Benevolence -- I think he's overrated. I've argued with people about whether or not lag is an advantage, and I've come to the conclusion that it just depends. It's a huge advantage for the way Benevolence plays the game; I'm not saying he would be bad if he didn't lag, but he would have to massively adjust his playstyle (which he may or may not be capable of doing). So what we get is a player that is a nightmare up close for many people to deal with but kind of a joke with any spacing or range.

I'm just gonna wrap it up right here probably. I think the next wave of players are very similar and belong higher than Bene and Radar (Ridden, clouds, bigdaddy); I've seen clouds improve a TON lately, so I think he has the most upside.

Shout outs:

Bone -- Obviously if he actually decided to put forth any effort to play ARC, he would be a beast once again. He's an intelligent person with the technical skills to match.

Dip -- Intelligence goes a long way on this game. I almost always like to have you on my team unless we're in a game where you just get absolutely outmatched in the fragging department, which is rare in CTA. If you were able to improve your fragging, you would skyrocket on this list. Props for being so solid yet being such a new player.

So if I were to break it down by tiers:

Sebek/Puffball -- you have to pick them first if they are in a game
Yoshi/Parrotman/Astrok/Drue -- who you pick next is up to you though I would lean towards Yoshi
Akma/Tengo/Unreal
BigDaddy/Clouds/Ridden
Radar/Bene -- Both of these players would be picked higher in some maps (Radar very much so in some maps) and maybe a bit lower in others.

-love dar

04-25-2014, 05:00 AM #22
Assailant AC Operations Team
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Status: Offline Posts:30 Threads:3 Joined:Mar 2014
I think a lot of these lists are biased based on who people like on this game personally. Here is a true unbiased list from what I have experienced.

1. Assailant. Brings so much to a game. Goes overlooked because he stays back in base and defends the flag and also goes out to defend the flagger during a flag run. A true raw skill powerhouse in this game. Not afraid to die strategically because he knows that might be the faster way to return and defend base. Or gives himself up to defend a fellow team mate. Sometimes its not about how little you die, but how your deaths benefit the team. This guy brings a bunch of intangibles to a team that go un-noticed in the stat column.

2. Parrotman. Another fine player with not only real ability but the best team player in the game. Knows how to position himself and just makes his entire team better.

3. Drue

4. Puffball

5. Yoshi

6. Akma

7. Astrok

8. Unreal

9. Tengo

10. Fudorm

04-25-2014, 05:15 AM #23
tengo Veteran
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Status: Offline Posts:428 Threads:31 Joined:Mar 2014
Dario Wrote:You keep referencing this evidence where "Drue has shown to be the better player" yet discounting my claims that he's nothing special in comparison to other good players. What evidence are you referring to that disputes anything I'm saying?

The evidence that Drue has outperformed all those other "good players" in the past couple of years? The evidence that is his record in CTA? The evidence that he won Glad? Or does none of that matter to you? Again, his performance is completely ignored by you because you cannot accept he's doing better than others.


Dario Wrote:I mean yeah it helped to have Drue, but it's not like he was their best player after he joined.

Yes he was.

Dario Wrote:Monoxide and Dzaaneez were the two best players in that league. Adding Drue definitely helped solidify their starting 4 though and even gave them the depth to rotate players in and out throughout the playoffs. I'm not saying they would have won without Drue, but if they added Drue and dropped Monoxide they most definitely would not have won.

Monoxide and Dzaaneez were not the two best players in that league. They played the losses against [cc] while Drue was still on that team. Then later Mono and Dza played both regular season losses against BAMF, with Mono getting outplayed heavily one game, and Drue coming into the the game late. It was only after they began starting Drue each game that they won 8 in a row and the Glad title. He also got the MVP.


Stop being stuck in 2009, that was five years ago.


Also not sure what you mean with Sebek, he's been around everytime I've bounced back from inactivity.

04-25-2014, 06:02 AM #24
Dario Still n00b
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Status: Offline Posts:134 Threads:4 Joined:Mar 2014
(04-25-2014, 05:15 AM)tengo Wrote:  The evidence that Drue has outperformed all those other "good players" in the past couple of years?

Yes, that evidence. Where is it? He didn't win glad; his team won glad, and he was the 3rd or 4th best player on that team. I'm not stupid enough to say that he doesn't have the best CTA results; however, I placed very little stock into pubstomping when I was making my list. I have maintained that, stylistically, the way he plays lets him crush mediocre players better than anyone not named Puffball or Yoshi, but nobody crushes anybody when you get rid of the mediocre and bad players. My list is based solely off which skills I have seen each player exhibit over the last few years: no CTA records, no league games in particular, just a composite of skillset.


tengo Wrote:Monoxide and Dzaaneez were not the two best players in that league. They played the losses against [cc] while Drue was still on that team. Then later Mono and Dza played both regular season losses against BAMF, with Mono getting outplayed heavily one game, and Drue coming into the the game late. It was only after they began starting Drue each game that they won 8 in a row and the Glad title. He also got the MVP.

You include MVP like that's some objective measure; hell I've won 2 league MVPs before with much better teammates (sup DE/Fordus). These games don't prove anything... You're acting like these games were Drue vs. Monoxide or Drue vs. Dzaaneez;. It was a team loss, and their loss was literally the first week of the season and only in the 2 maps that required gimmick strategies to win. Once they were exposed to these maps, they quickly figured out how to win. [cc] was probably the only team with tons of experience in those 2 maps, but their advantage quickly dissolved when the good players figured out how to play those maps. Even in the loss vs. BAMF, TCH was the only team to have challenged us at that point. Losing to BAMF doesn't mean that Mono and Dz weren't the top 2 players. BAMF was the better team at that point, and it just so happened that BAMF had 4 of the next 5 best players (if Gaur showed). It's not like I'm saying Mono and Dz were far and away the best, but they were the best.

And we barely won that entice game if you remember, so I don't think you can say anyone in TCH was "outplayed heavily." We had to completely change our strategy to an uber-aggressive one in the last 5-6 minutes and caught them off guard completely to reel off like 8 caps in a row.


tengo Wrote:Stop being stuck in 2009, that was five years ago.

What? You keep saying 2003 and 2009, but I don't think I've said anything about either of those dates.


tengo Wrote:Also not sure what you mean with Sebek, he's been around everytime I've bounced back from inactivity.

Besides the 2-3 week stretch during ACHT and the current stretch, I can't remember the last time he was active post-SGL.
This post was last modified: 04-25-2014, 06:08 AM by Dario.

-love dar

04-25-2014, 06:17 AM #25
tengo Veteran
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Status: Offline Posts:428 Threads:31 Joined:Mar 2014
Dario Wrote:8. Tengo -- I think the best way to describe Tengo at this point is a poor man's Drue. I think tengo isn't quite as one-dimensional as Drue, but he doesn't offer quite as much in the close range fragging department as Drue either. His style of play suits almost every popular map. Lately his attitude has been dogshit. Maybe he's just trolling and is being taken seriously, but I don't like the idea of flaming your teammates the instant you lose a game. Tengo, you're gonna burn yourself out if you stress over every fucking CTA game like I've seen lately. It's just a CTA game; it's designed for you to lose half of them.

For the record, I haven't raged over a CTA game in a week. But that's because I care for these noobs like they are my children. Remember folks, when someone stops caring, you have something to worry about. The part in bold I will address in the following paragraph.


Dario Wrote:10. Dario -- I obviously think I'm much better than #10. However, I can see where I'm rated so low based on how little I play now and how much I don't care competitively anymore. So I'm certainly not deserving of being any higher, and honestly I don't deserve to be in the top 10 either. This may not be a valid excuse, but I have become such a casual player and don't care about winning a CTA game in the same sense that I care about winning leagues. I think I was the 3rd or 4th best player in the last gladiators league and in the last GO tournament, so I'm really hoping that the next gladiators league includes maps and rules that motivate me to come out and play. Until then, I'm gonna play a few CTAs a month, watch a lot more CTAs, and try to develop some more maps.


Ladies And Gentlemen, Follow Me Through This Journey As We Attempt To Understand Why The Hell Dario Thinks He Is Better Than #10.

First claim: "I was the 3rd or 4th best player in the last gladiators league"

You can't say you were the 3rd or 4th best player in a league you lost, which includes losing almost all your games to the winning team. First, put yourself behind Drue (who you played and lost to three times in Glad) and the other starters for TCH: Mono, Dza, K0r and Viskuda. Once you've done that, be honest with yourself in the fact that Gaur was the best in BAMF even though he barely showed. I'm also ignoring Parrotman and a couple others weren't involved in strong lineups. You may place yourself towards the bottom of the top ten in Glad, assuming you thought you were the 2nd best player in BAMF.

Second claim: "I was the 3rd or 4th best player in the last GO tournament"

WHAT!? Someone please find me the .jpg of Jackie Chan's "wtf face". This is ridiculous to read, and either you are trolling hard or really delusional. Let's review your performance during ACHT (courtesy of my "History of LN" post):

3-0 Loss to Violent
1-0 Win over RS when they didn't have Drue playing
2-0 Loss to CaDF
1-0 Win over CaDF because I was playing

So let's see, you got smashed by Violent and CaDF and barely beat RS while they were missing their best player. We already beat CaDF without you in the line, and hardly won in OT with you in the line. Yet you consider yourself "3rd to 4th best player" during that tournament? Congratulations, you are becoming the present-day Gh0st.


Dario Wrote:I think the best way to describe Tengo at this point is a poor man's Drue. I think tengo isn't quite as one-dimensional as Drue, but he doesn't offer quite as much in the close range fragging department as Drue either.

There's always improvements to be made but I think my close range is above-average and tends to be avoided by top-tier players. Close-range fighting is generally a desperation tactic that is avoided in the larger maps, and is unavoidable in CTAs. I still end up being one of the top performers.

1. Never underestimate the power of one-dimensional players,
2. They may knock you out of playoff contention.
(Dario = Masamune)


Ladies and gentlemen, thank you for sharing this journey with me. Although I am not interested in submitting my own comments for each player, I think this fits perfectly:

10. Dario: Still thinks it's 2003.
This post was last modified: 04-25-2014, 06:18 AM by tengo.

04-25-2014, 06:40 AM #26
cyro Forum Administrator
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Status: Offline Posts:742 Threads:153 Joined:Jan 1970
Quote:For the record, I haven't raged over a CTA game in a week. But that's because I care for these noobs like they are my children. Remember folks, when someone stops caring, you have something to worry about. The part in bold I will address in the following paragraph.

Not true.
This post was last modified: 04-25-2014, 06:41 AM by cyro.

tocs.

04-25-2014, 06:50 AM #27
Dario Still n00b
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Status: Offline Posts:134 Threads:4 Joined:Mar 2014
tengo Wrote:You can't say you were the 3rd or 4th best player in a league you lost

Not sure if serious. I guess in the famed series where toughshot was the only person to rival Mage ever that he is automatically the 5th best player in that league because his team came in 2nd. I guess meek was the 4th best player in the league when they won SPL with Mage and Slick.


tengo Wrote:First, put yourself behind Drue (who you played and lost to three times in Glad)

I've already said that I think a team win doesn't make one player superior or inferior to another. It's the skill of the player that determines that. HOWEVER, I played against Drue 8 times and won 5 of those games.


tengo Wrote:Be honest with yourself in the fact that Gaur was the best in BAMF even though he barely showed.

This is why I said 3rd or 4th best. Gaur may have been better, but I don't think that's definite. When Gaur played, he wasn't replacing me, he was replacing our 4th or 5th starter; I think you need a lesson in determining variables.


tengo Wrote:Second claim: "I was the 3rd or 4th best player in the last GO tournament"

WHAT!? Someone please find me the .jpg of Jackie Chan's "wtf face". This is ridiculous to read, and either you are trolling hard or really delusional. Let's review your performance during ACHT

Sebek and Faur were better for sure, and I think Astrok played pretty well too. I don't feel like I need to say anything about those games you referenced when they literally meant NOTHING with regard to the outcome of the season, but I will. We had already decided going into the season that getting a 1 or 2 seed would require a lot of effort (and may have been unattainable) for no reward besides a bye which we basically got anyway because the rest of the clans were downright terrible. So my claim is that I played bad on purpose; I know that sounds like a terrible excuse. Believe what you want, but it should be enough that I played like a donkey during the regular season and was the 2nd or 3rd best player in the CaDF game behind Sebek and maybe Astrok.


tengo Wrote:There's always improvements to be made but I think my close range is above-average and tends to be avoided by top-tier players. Close-range fighting is generally a desperation tactic that is avoided in the larger maps, and is unavoidable in CTAs. I still end up being one of the top performers.

1. Never underestimate the power of one-dimensional players,
2. They may knock you out of playoff contention.
(Dario = Masamune)

Yes, 3 of the 4 AoA starters (not named SeVeN) were better than everyone in MM not named ElAsesino at that time. I have never once claimed to have been playing well during that league.

-love dar

04-25-2014, 06:58 AM #28
Yosh Unregistered
 
(04-25-2014, 06:50 AM)Dario Wrote:  We had already decided going into the season that getting a 1 or 2 seed would require a lot of effort (and may have been unattainable) for no reward besides a bye which we basically got anyway because the rest of the clans were downright terrible. So my claim is that I played bad on purpose; I know that sounds like a terrible excuse. Believe what you want, but it should be enough that I played like a donkey during the regular season and was the 2nd or 3rd best player in the CaDF game behind Sebek and maybe Astrok.

I can confirm that before the matches started when we learned how the playoffs were going to work that we had a chat that we weren't going to tryhard in the regular season. I'm not saying we would have beaten CaDF without tengo in the playoffs (we probably wouldn't), but we definitely weren't putting everything into every game during the regular season. Several games during the season (like the one where we struggled against RS) we had several lag problems with the server (ESPECIALLY that one game against zen and also against RS). I remember Dario even had to sub out at one point. I'm not saying we would have beaten CaDF or Violent if dario was in full tryhard state because we probably wouldn't have. We had mentally accepted we were probably the third best team in the league. A lot of excuses that you can't really prove without having actually been in the room and felt the tone, but yeah...

I know me, unreal, and night were trying very hard in the CaDF and Violent games even though we discussed that we really weren't going to and we were actually pretty upset with Dario when he was just fucking around. We weren't really going 100% against the likes of MS, Zen, or RS though not to take anything away from them.

To sum it all up: Before the season started we accepted that we were probably the third best team. We decided we weren't going to go full force until playoffs. Even though that was our plan, during the violent and cadf games everyone but dario actually tried their best (we were pissed at dario because of this). Can't prove any of this with hard evidence.
This post was last modified: 04-25-2014, 07:18 AM by Yosh.

04-25-2014, 07:19 AM #29
Dario Still n00b
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Status: Offline Posts:134 Threads:4 Joined:Mar 2014
Oh I think I should add that I'm ashamed that I have to even defend myself and make claims that I was the third or fourth best player in these leagues. Both leagues were a joke as evidenced by the lack of interest from a lot of top players. Being the third or fourth best player is nothing special in this case. I still consider myself mediocre to good only, but in relation to the rest of the player base I'm one of the best right now.

-love dar

04-25-2014, 07:33 AM #30
tengo Veteran
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Status: Offline Posts:428 Threads:31 Joined:Mar 2014
Dario Wrote:Not sure if serious. I guess in the famed series where toughshot was the only person to rival Mage ever that he is automatically the 5th best player in that league because his team came in 2nd. I guess meek was the 4th best player in the league when they won SPL with Mage and Slick.

Not sure if you're seriously comparing your stint in Gladiators (where your team placed third) to Toughshot or Slicks performance in SPL.


Dario Wrote:I've already said that I think a team win doesn't make one player superior or inferior to another. It's the skill of the player that determines that. HOWEVER, I played against Drue 8 times and won 5 of those games.

I guess where our differences lie, because I put more emphasis on the results of organized games to take away any biases. In other words, performance wise, you think someone is better, but when the performance really counts (in an organized league setting) and the results show otherwise, you are still not adjusting your mindset of who is better. Drue could keep winning as he has, but you still think there's many people that are better than him, including yourself. Yet you have nothing to prove for this... its subjective and conflicts the evidence at hand. Also did you srsly count the games against CC?


Dario Wrote:This is why I said 3rd or 4th best. Gaur may have been better, but I don't think that's definite. When Gaur played, he wasn't replacing me, he was replacing our 4th or 5th starter; I think you need a lesson in determining variables.

You were the 3rd or 4th best in BAMF. You still refuse to put the entire starting lineup for TCH that outplayed you the entire season. The line that has a winning record against you in Glad is apparently still not as good as you are. That doesn't make sense.


Dario Wrote:Sebek and Faur were better for sure, and I think Astrok played pretty well too. I don't feel like I need to say anything about those games you referenced when they literally meant NOTHING with regard to the outcome of the season, but I will. We had already decided going into the season that getting a 1 or 2 seed would require a lot of effort (and may have been unattainable) for no reward besides a bye which we basically got anyway because the rest of the clans were downright terrible. So my claim is that I played bad on purpose; I know that sounds like a terrible excuse. Believe what you want, but it should be enough that I played like a donkey during the regular season and was the 2nd or 3rd best player in the CaDF game behind Sebek and maybe Astrok.

You didn't try your hardest during those games because you didn't think you could win. That's all you have to say. And as Yoshi said, you guys probably wouldn't have won. The number one rule for any competitive player that has ever played this game is every challenge is welcomed, as long as you know you have a chance. So you'll play your game vs RS because you can't accept a loss against them. But the loss versus Violent and CaDF was expected and thus, you accepted the loss before the games even started. The excuse that the games "didn't matter" is irrelevant.



Dario Wrote:Yes, 3 of the 4 AoA starters (not named SeVeN) were better than everyone in MM not named ElAsesino at that time. I have never once claimed to have been playing well during that league.

Haven't heard this one yet and I vaguely remember the predictions/discussion thread going in favor of MM. MM had close games with V who placed second. I had just returned to the game a month before so there was no way to confirm I was better than anybody. It wasn't discovered we were the better team until the games ended. Before the games begun, the same mindset that plagues you (and some others) was prevalent.






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