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Ending Games Early
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08-22-2014, 11:10 PM #1
Turbo AC Administrator
Status: Offline Posts:338 Threads:86 Joined:Mar 2014
Yesterday, I played/reffed a CTA in a map called “Lassie”, and our team ended up winning 23-13 I believe? I got a complaint from one of the players on the opposing team claiming that I was letting the game go out of hand when I should have just closed it early. He noticed that the day before, I lost 6 games straight, so he assumed I was making up for all the losses. I just wanted to have a respectful discussion with everyone on this so that we can come to a mutual agreement.

First of all, if you go to my CTA profile, you can see that my winning % is 31%. Had I wanted to rig anything in my favor, I would have probably done it a long time ago, given such a terrible record. Second of all, I created CTA not to rig it in my favor, but to make sure you all enjoy it. That’s an honest statement. It would be counterintuitive if I rigged any CTA function just so I can get an improved winning %.

Now lets go to the issue at hand. I still do not agree that a game should end if there is a disparity between the scores. I think I have a stronger case now mainly because the teams, at least 99% of the time, are even due to Odoacer’s system. If the score does become lobsided, I can confidently say its most likely not due to skill difference but lack of strategy. So if the winning team is performing much better than the losing team, why penalize the winning team just because they have a more dominant strategy? When I asked the individual “Why penalize the winning team”, he responded saying “Why penalize the players on the losing team that were trying?” I think from that statement, we have to look at two things in this situation:
1. Do we reward the players that won the game (by making the game continue)
2. Do we reward the players that lost the game, but were trying (by calling game early)

I think anyone would choose #1 in this scenario. Not sure why blowouts are so disapproved by the community. Maybe its because they don’t want the added losses to their record? Wouldn’t that be considered rigging the system?
This post was last modified: 08-22-2014, 11:18 PM by Turbo.

Spark Administrator
Founder of CTA and Gladiators

08-22-2014, 11:51 PM #2
Turbo AC Administrator
Status: Offline Posts:338 Threads:86 Joined:Mar 2014
But by ending the game early, you’re rewarding the losing team.

Lets look at an example of a hypothetical CTA 10v10 Fister game:

Team A: At the beginning of each round, 2 people always port, 2 people take bunkers, 6 go to the middle everytime.
Team B: At the beginning of each round, 1 person takes the bunker, 3 stay in base to kill porters, the rest go into the middle

Judging from this scenario, I would say Team A has the advantage, and if they keep winning because they have a dominant strategy.. why end the game early?

Another example:
CTA Lassie:

Team A: Always has 4 players going for top/bottom switches (2 to the top, 2 to the bottom)
Team B: Has entire team swarm middle.

Of course Team A has the advantage here because that’s 4 switches guaranteed by just 4 people. Now because of the more dominant strategy, we should end the game earlier because the other team can’t improve their strategy?

Its one thing if its TBWA vs *Area51*, but its another if its TBWA vs CADF. The teams are even.

Spark Administrator
Founder of CTA and Gladiators

08-23-2014, 01:42 AM #3
Turbo AC Administrator
Status: Offline Posts:338 Threads:86 Joined:Mar 2014
So what you're saying is that anytime there is a large disparity between scores, it is always due to the rating system not generating even teams. I highly disagree with that statement. They should be allowed to stat pad because their strategy is greater than the strategy of the losing team. And this doesn't happen constantly, so a new user wouldn't quit the game because of this.

Spark Administrator
Founder of CTA and Gladiators

08-23-2014, 02:10 AM #4
Dario Still n00b
Status: Offline Posts:133 Threads:4 Joined:Mar 2014
(08-22-2014, 11:10 PM)Turbo Wrote:  I think I have a stronger case now mainly because the teams, at least 99% of the time, are even due to Odoacer’s system.
Based on what? Anecdotal evidence? Or have you crunched the numbers on scoring margins comparing the old method to the new method? Don't get me wrong. I prefer the new method hands down mainly due to its efficiency, and it most likely does produce evenly matched teams more often than the old method (I seriously doubt it's anywhere close to 99% though).

Turbo Wrote:If the score does become lobsided, I can confidently say its most likely not due to skill difference but lack of strategy.
What's the difference? If you suck at knowing how to play the game, you lack skill compared to the person who does. That is a fundamental skill difference.

Turbo Wrote:But by ending the game early, you’re rewarding the losing team.
You're rewarding everyone in the game who prefers to play another game that is hopefully competitive. I may be wrong, but I think most players on this game prefer a competitive game to a blowout. From my viewpoint, it sucks to be on either side of a blowout game; it's boring for both teams and can lead to trollish behavior on either side. I don't think you're rewarding just the losing team or for that matter penalizing the winning team by ending these games early. The only people penalized are the people who like to play in blowout games, and I can't imagine there are that many.

Disclaimer: this is all based on my firm belief that round win ratio is a horseshit stat and should be removed.

-love dar

08-23-2014, 03:19 AM #5
RoboTech Veteran
Status: Offline Posts:299 Threads:57 Joined:Mar 2014
(08-22-2014, 11:10 PM)Turbo Wrote:  If the score does become lobsided, I can confidently say its most likely not due to skill difference but lack of strategy.

I firmly believe this. Higher ranked players you need to pull your team together when you know they won't play the map correctly. Inform your team of the map's strategy before the game starts. Make sure they understand the main goal of the map. When I do this, I find myself enjoying the game much more, and get surprised with upsets. Carrying your team is more than being best in Statistics. Be a leader.

If our lives were great we wouldn't need second ones on this hell hole.
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08-23-2014, 07:36 AM #6
A MF S Still n00b
Status: Offline Posts:117 Threads:20 Joined:Mar 2014
While I personally don't agree with ending games early I will if enough people complain. I like to finish a game out, good or bad, for the most part as just because your losing doesn't mean you can improve.

Being a reff though I can understand where people are coming from not wanting to finish a game they have no chance at winning. In these situation I generally wait till a good amount of people complain and then also ask the team on the winning side. And, there have been times when people are like, "No lets keep going." Perhaps if a system was put in place where if a team goes up 5 caps, depending on map, the game gets paused and asked if they should continue or not. If enough say no then just stop it?

If it is only 1-2 people complaining on a team of 12, as I tihnk was the case yesterday, I would have just ignored them.

08-23-2014, 08:04 AM #7
eekum Veteran
Status: Offline Posts:399 Threads:51 Joined:Mar 2014
I hate ending games early. It's dumb.

08-23-2014, 12:39 PM #8
hybridx n00b
Status: Offline Posts:46 Threads:3 Joined:Apr 2014
okay fine i'll take back my comments about your losses influencing your decision not to call it, but you gotta admit it was fishy.. lol if you give me your "word" that you genuinely don't think you would have ended the game sooner had you been on my team, then okay, we can't split hairs.

regardless, a lot of the points i was going to try and make were already done so. i don't want to beat a dead horse. ultimately it's always going to be the ref's decision. but losing any game by a margin of 10 or more is going to really mess up stats for both the winners (buffing a player who normally wouldn't have such numbers) and losers (countering 5 close wins with 1 awful, uncontrolled loss). and while stats are but a small part of this issue, it is an issue nonetheless.

overall i just think you need to consider this.. in your two scenarios, the winning team is still going to win.. get that W and no doubt have better overall stats to fluff their profile. the losing team is still getting a loss etc etc. you aren't penalizing the winning team nearly as much as you are those top (or at least, players trying their best) but just getting rolled. it's demoralizing, it makes you want to stop playing (even if only for the night) and i think the risk of losing even 1 player to let a winning team cap 3 more times isn't worth it.

just my 2 cents, i would rather lose 99 games 5-4 in OT then win 100 7-0. Keep it fair, end the game and move onto the next one!!
This post was last modified: 08-23-2014, 01:13 PM by hybridx.

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08-23-2014, 02:15 PM #9
Odoacer AC Operations Team
Status: Offline Posts:154 Threads:16 Joined:Apr 2014
(08-23-2014, 02:06 AM)gates Wrote:  IMO You can carry a team better than Odo can. Yet he's ranked higher than you.

Turbo is and has always been ranked higher than me.

08-23-2014, 08:24 PM #10
A MF S Still n00b
Status: Offline Posts:117 Threads:20 Joined:Mar 2014
I am drunk mind you.s

I had a comments.

Comments about how the major of people playing have played so long don't/should not care about a single overall win in a single thousands of games played in cta history. Even a point about how if a person is new they most likely dont care as they are just playing to play. As most of us are.

However, I will say though. The map we were playing, and there are a few maps where it is possible like insight, money regen, good company, ytemvhes, etc, it is possible to come back and come back with a vengeance. True with 2 min to go and a certain amount lead is there a point to continue to play? However, at that point why not just finish it?

I don't think turbo was in the wrong by no means in this specific situation. However, him being the person he is and in the position he is he has brought it into discussion, as a topic, in the cta private discussion section. And, whether you were right or not as a player, always bring up an issue if there is ever one and it will be discussed, if it is legitimate. As I feel ending games early or not is.

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