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Protest: LN vs RS 10-21-14 11:30pm
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11-22-2014, 04:25 PM #1
Bone Still n00b
Status: Offline Posts:212 Threads:32 Joined:Apr 2014
(11-04-2014, 02:28 PM)DarkEvil Wrote:  9.2 - ACG's policy with regard to cheating:

* 9.2.1 - Cheating is prohibited, and ACG classifies cheating under two categories - intentional game-altering behavior, and non-intentional game altering. Anyone caught cheating will be subject to a ban for the next Gladiators/Go league (not including the current cycle)

* 9.2.2 - Game-altering behavior includes but is not limited to: extreme lag, constant spikes, a series of spikes or a prominent spike during a critical play, or godmode-like behavior (damage immunity).

9.3 - Any player or clan found to be exhibiting game-altering behavior is subject to protest.

* 9.3.1 - ACG will review accusations of game-altering behavior on a case-by-case basis. The only difference between intentional and non-intentional game-altering behavior is, obviously, if the league has sufficient reason to believe a player or clan (or both) had intent behind the exhibited behavior.

* 9.3.2 - *Sufficient reason can exist without concrete proof*. Things such as behavior, patterns, circumstantial evidence, player credibility, testimony as to the nature of the occurrences, etc., will all be examined and the league will decide whether or not there is enough reasonable doubt as to A) whether significant game-altering behavior in fact occurred B) whether there is strong enough likelihood that there was intent behind it.

9.4 - If a player is exhibiting any kind of game-altering behavior, he is expected to sub out immediately. One of the refs should notice it and ask the player to sub out immediately, and if not the opposing clan may urge the ref(s) to observe said player and request he sub-out. A clan's captain is also expected to urge his teammate to sub out if he starts spiking or exhibiting game-altering behavior, because his clan will be held accountable for this player's game-altering behavior, and clans are expected to have any players sub-out if the majority of other players in game including the refs notice this (sometimes a player is smooth on his own screen, but everyone else sees them spiking).

This protest is two-fold. LN is protesting CloudS' (Kweli) spiking in the specific game mentioned above in the title, as we feel it impacted the game in a negative manner. We are also protesting on a larger scale, as this is not the first game he has spiked in, nor has it been the first time it has affected games he has participated in.

Based on the rules above, we feel CloudS spiking falls under the "unintentional game-altering behavior" category. We have no proof it can be labeled "intentional", so we have no desire to argue or make claims regarding that. "game-altering behavior" (to us) has two definitions. There's the simple and more literal definition: any out of place occurrence that directly ALTERS the game in that specific moment. Then the more gray definition: an occurrence that alters the whole gameplay onward (player's decisions, momentum, tempo, etc.) These aren't necessarily one in the same, but they can both stem from the same occurrence. CloudS random, erratic spikes qualify as both, in our eyes.

Now specifically the game at hand. I have watched only the first half of the replay upon writing this, so I can not comment on the 2nd half at this time. From what I have seen thus far, I've noticed 4 or 5 times CloudS spiked. They vary in degree of "how bad" they were, and the impact they had. Most notably, the first spike is the main focal point. Early in the match, with Night and myself top (red) vs Kweli and a 2nd RS, at red base entrance (bridge), CloudS had a large spike. Night and I looked to have a very quality rape on Kweli as he pressed onto the bridge. Night threw a spread/bouncy at him (he ate it on our screen) just as I threw a complimentary nade (which appeared to hit him). He then spiked away from all of that (taking no damage), almost to the other side of the bridge entirely, while also throwing a nade at me in a very tight spot along with a nade from his teammate. This resulted in my death, and then opened a clear path into our base in which they flagged. We were not able to recover. This seems to us to be a clear case of "game-altering behavior", as it clearly affected this moment of the game.

Now in regards to the second defintion of "game-altering behavior", one can not measure how a cap can change the flow of a game, or the way the teams play from that moment on. LN was forced into an early 0-1 hole, and thus had to play an uphill battle to attempt to comeback. We also had to play against CloudS still, knowing his spiking potential still existed, and yes, spikes still did occur that LN had to deal with. This, we feel, alters the way a game plays out because it affects how we, the opponents, play from that point on. Put LN aside, no players should be subject to these type of events in-game.

Which brings me to my next point. Regardless what the result of this protest is, we all know CloudS spikes and does so often. This isn't new. LN surely isn't the first team to endure this, nor will we be the last if he is allowed to continue to play under these conditions. I'm all for including everyone, but not if it is having this sort of impact in-game. The integrity of the games comes first.
This post was last modified: 11-22-2014, 04:36 PM by Bone.

11-23-2014, 01:04 AM #2
RoboTech Veteran
Status: Offline Posts:290 Threads:55 Joined:Mar 2014
Yall capped not long after we did, so your momentum should have been fine, lol. It was a good game, and I think you're being sour. One or two moments where his lag might have been unfortunate for seconds do not take away from the majority of the game that it was just fine, Talking to Odoacer last night, his lag only really affected one flag run. I don't believe this was game changing lag, or without it, you would have beaten us for sure. I believe you were outplayed by our team as a whole. It was not one players fragging or lagging out of things that won us this game. It was good teamwork, communication, and rape. Which definitely stands out more in the replay than Kweli's one or two unfortunate moments.

On another note, I've notice I have to shoot an inch away from Croa's ship in order to hit him. Put RS aside, no players should be subject to these type of events in-game.
This post was last modified: 11-23-2014, 01:29 AM by RoboTech.

Coldfire- / Fire u^B / RiddeN
Director of Competitive Gaming
RIP {ReignSupreme}

11-23-2014, 02:34 AM #3
Bone Still n00b
Status: Offline Posts:212 Threads:32 Joined:Apr 2014
This has nothing to do with Croa, and a consistent (but higher) ping is not one in the same as a player's ping fluctuating and causing unpredictable spikes.

Whether his spiking directly affects a specific play isn't even debatable. Watch him play, watch this games replay, etc. It is crystal clear it does at times, and did in this game. That's what "unintentional game-altering behavior" is in its simplest form. Also, if anyone claims CloudS spiking doesn't alter the way opponents play against him, you are in pure denial. Even the fear that he will spike against you is enough to change your tactics. I know in our match, from that moment on, we took the approach we CAN NOT take any sort of risks 1v1, 2v2, etc. vs CloudS. We had to rape him as a team any opportunity we had, or we would risk getting spiked on again and perhaps be subject to the consequences yet again. It makes you hesitate and question even being aggressive on him in times you usually would, because you aren't sure if it's going to cost you if he spikes at that time. Quite frankly, if his spiking doesn't fall under "unintentional game-altering behavior", then consider these games full blown anarchy. This is the very reason this rule is in place.

Nobody is being sour. We lost already this season, one of which was to AoA, who we dislike. We accept losing when it happens, as I'm sure this won't be the last time we lose either. However, RS has a player that frequently spikes, substantially enough at times to alter the game in ways it shouldn't. Unfortunate for RS and him, but that's who it should be hurting. Not everyone else in the league playing against him.

Also, as I've said, we aren't even going to attempt to pass this off as cheating, because we would never be able to prove that. Food for thought though: Prior to BPT starting, I had already witnessed his frequent and game-changing spikes in many CTA games. As did the whole community. He was known for this shit. I said prior to BPT I was considering suspending him prematurely because there is no point in allowing him to play and affect games the way he did in CTA. I did not suspend him, and he mysteriously stopped spiking. Whether he is cheating intentionally or not, it would suggest he at least knows what used to cause him to spike, and he has reverted to his old method of playing. I believe he once said in the lobby a little while back that he had played on a different computer in BPT to prevent him from spiking. Problem solved, yet he does not do so now, and spikes knowingly in these games instead. A whole other issue at hand. One might even consider that aspect "intentional".
This post was last modified: 11-23-2014, 03:05 AM by Bone.

11-23-2014, 04:57 AM #4
CloudS Still n00b
Status: Offline Posts:111 Threads:4 Joined:Apr 2014
Good luck Bone.

p.s. Looking forward to your power rankings for Week 3!

{ReignSupreme} | TCH - 2012 GWC Champion | odas. | New eRa Gaming

11-23-2014, 06:05 AM #5
igloo n00b
Status: Offline Posts:6 Threads:2 Joined:Apr 2014
ban clouds from league games in a 70 person game due do minor spikes. that's what should happen.

11-23-2014, 06:14 AM #6
Bone Still n00b
Status: Offline Posts:212 Threads:32 Joined:Apr 2014
(11-23-2014, 06:05 AM)igloo Wrote:  ban clouds from league games in a 70 person game due do minor spikes. that's what should happen.

Minor isn't always the case, nor was it this occasion. By your logic as well, we should all level the playing field and start spiking ourselves. That's the alternative if you would deem his spiking allowable in games. If he can, then so can everyone else. Solid thought process from a member of the community as always. Oh, you don't play at all nor do you have any concept of what is going on regarding this situation. Even better.

Not to mention, the likely chance he is very capable of playing without spiking, as he exhibited in BPT. He chooses not to.
This post was last modified: 11-23-2014, 06:15 AM by Bone.

11-23-2014, 06:41 AM #7
cyro Forum Administrator
Status: Offline Posts:720 Threads:153 Joined:Jan 1970
Going to have to agree with Bone on this one. This is hardly the first time this issue has come up with this particular player having game altering spikes. When its been mandated in the past he has been able to fix this connection so I don't see why he should be able to play with it.


11-23-2014, 09:16 AM #8
Endo n00b
Status: Offline Posts:2 Threads:0 Joined:Jul 2014
I just watched the replay and I don't think the spike makes any difference whatsoever. Let me explain.

If you watch the replay, you (Bone) shoot your nade basically the same moment (maybe .1 second later) that Clouds shoots a spread/bouncy at Night. At the moment you shoot the nade, he wasnt spiking, or had just started spiking like .05 seconds before. It was such a small amount of time that even if Clouds had not spiked, the nade would not have done much damage anyway. You saw him spike after you threw the nade and were hoping (and after you realized he was spiking, disappointed) that he didnt completely eat the nade like an idiot, or continue down the bridge where you could shoot him, also like an idiot. That nade basically had no chance of doing damage and his spike didn't affect your decision to throw it because it happened such a close time to you throwing it. ALSO, even if it had done a little bit of damage, clouds medded twice right after that. The first med made him full and the second med did nothing because he was already full. Even if the nade had done a little bit of damage, the second med would have made him full anyway. The only thing that arguably made a difference was the bouncy Night shot at spiking-Clouds down the bridge. One bouncy wasted on someone spiking isn't enough to merit replaying the game or taking a point off, in my opinion.

11-23-2014, 09:24 AM #9
benevolence AC Administrator
Status: Offline Posts:397 Threads:35 Joined:Mar 2014
(11-23-2014, 01:04 AM)RoboTech Wrote:  Yall capped not long after we did, so your momentum should have been fine, lol. It was a good game, and I think you're being sour. One or two moments where his lag might have been unfortunate for seconds do not take away from the majority of the game that it was just fine, Talking to Odoacer last night, his lag only really affected one flag run. I don't believe this was game changing lag

I'm not sure how you can say it is not 'game changing lag' right after saying it affected your first flag run in a game that was won by a 1 cap margin. The few seconds that you speak of are all it takes sometimes to turn a 50-50 battle in your favour, so while he might be fine for 90% of the game, those other 'one or two' moments can definitely be game changing. There were similar moments in our first game of the season, but as we were well and truly beaten it had no impact on the outcome of the game.

Also before you accuse LN of being 'sour', you should remember that they willingly and immediately subbed a guy out to make it 3v3 when Clouds lagged out. Sour? Maybe not.

11-23-2014, 12:16 PM #10
RoboTech Veteran
Status: Offline Posts:290 Threads:55 Joined:Mar 2014
Umm. Thanks Bene, but I actually had called a time-out when he lagged out, because it was right after a cap. I was a little late calling it due to typos, so it didn't get completely used, but he did return shortly. Thanks for not playing 3v4 for that 1-2 minutes he was gone, but I think you did that for their own rep tbh. Also, you had not lost yet, so there was nothing to be sour about, so I don't understand the relevance of mentioning that. FYI, {RS} wouldn't have played 4v3 if that had happened to yall. Good to know were all good sports. Oh wait...

To end this, the only thing that definitely lost you this game was the fact that you all got baited by a smoker(me) and tricked into being flanked, thus getting completely owned by our nades at the end, down low outside of red base.. Basically handing over your flag and giving us the win. I really appreciate that! Like i previously said. Yall were outplayed, and are sour about it.
This post was last modified: 11-24-2014, 03:24 AM by RoboTech.

Coldfire- / Fire u^B / RiddeN
Director of Competitive Gaming
RIP {ReignSupreme}

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