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Protest: CaDF vs. MM
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12-02-2014, 01:41 PM #1
tempest n00b
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Status: Offline Posts:42 Threads:12 Joined:May 2014
There are two aspects of the match MM would like to address:
1) 1strule's game-altering behavior, and
2) Astrok receiving two grenades after the timeout prior to anyone else

I initially looked at my personal replay, so my time stamps are roughly 6 minutes "early" unless otherwise noted. If noted or in parenthesis, the time stamps refer to the replay download file available through the ACG stats page.

First, regarding 1strule, MM feels his unstable connection was inconsistent and altered the gameplay of the match, in some cases to varying degrees.

~5m40s: 1strule begins tiny hops (maybe ploss?)

~11m43s: First questionable behavior (warp)

~18m50s (~26m22s): Big warp, 1strule's positioning is questionable for about 2 seconds while being the target of me and slucket

~27m2s: Mini-spikes around wall while under fire; no resulting cap

~28m8s (~34m45s): 1strule is exhibiting mini hops/spikes all the way through to the cap when it becomes 4-3; spikes in open field; at one point, I shoot two lasers with 1strule "dodging" down that miss but otherwise appear to hit, BUT subsequently in nearly the exact same circumstances (position and shot) and appears to take damage from 1 of 2 lasers of mine.

Overall, MM feels throughout the entire match, 1strule's connection was not stable, and at some points was a distraction. To know whether a player is there or not, and to be the subject of fire when such shots/specials could have been used on a different player alters the integrity of the match. MM expressed concern; however, no refs were witnesses to prompt any action.

Second, MM wants to address the match starting from MM's timeout through to end of game.

Timeout was called, and all players have spawned with some seemingly technical difficulties to get the match paused. Point is, we are all newly spawned fresh for no more than 10 seconds (this is being generous)

The match is unpaused at 40m14s.
It is leading up to the 40m58s that Astrok launches two subsequent grenades at slucket with this round ending with CaDF going up 5-3.

Now, from my calculations in a private stank server, it takes ~43-44 seconds for your first nade to load. From the time of unpause which we can say is 40m4s due to the 10 second “grace” of being out of pen already, through to the mark that Astrok has launched two nades, only 54 seconds have elapsed.

Overall, MM feels this round at 4-3 CaDF was not an even playing field.


To recap, here are our main points to walk away with:

1) 1strule’s connection is questionable at times. I personally feel he be at the very least be under watch. Spikes can happen at opportune random moments and to what extent they affect the match is arguable. In this match, it appears his connection gets more unstable as the match progressed.

2) The Astrok/grenade situation should be grounds for replay at the very least from that timeout onward. From the jump, the timeout was a mess with pause/unpauses, which may have bugged Astrok’s ship.

3) Lastly, I think there is an opportunity for matches at the halftime mark. MM called a timeout at halftime “late” (game is at 3-2 CaDF). I would recommend a minor pause at halftime of at least 1 minute to accommodate players. Stank’s pentime is not very long, so for us to have to “race” the clock is outrageous. We had a player trying to mapflip in this time which caused a lot of shuffling/confusion for our end. I mean, it IS a halftime, and in every sport, there is some lag time in-between halves. DarkEvil said he would pause the game on the next cap (MM ties for 3-3), but we actually didn’t get that timeout until it was later called when CaDF goes up 4-3.


Thanks for your time reading this, and I apologize for my less than accurate pinpointing of times on the replays.

12-02-2014, 01:57 PM #2
DarkEvil AC Guide
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Status: Offline Posts:288 Threads:52 Joined:Apr 2014
You're absolutely right about giving people a little bit of time during halftime. I should be giving players time to enter the map flip command and such, my apologies on that. Also, I do remember myself saying that I would pause on the next cap... however some people on the spectators team were telling me that Sebek was spiking, and I didn't see it... so I was caught up in trying to concentrate on finding his spikes that I had forgotten to pause on the next cap.

Either way, I take full responsibility regarding my actions and I apologize. Odoacer and I will review the replay file and state our answer regarding the protest as soon as possible. Thank you.

- DarkEvil

12-02-2014, 02:22 PM #3
tempest n00b
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Status: Offline Posts:42 Threads:12 Joined:May 2014
Apology accepted. But you're slippin. Wink jk Appreciate the acknowledgement.

12-03-2014, 06:10 AM #4
benevolence AC Administrator
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Status: Offline Posts:397 Threads:35 Joined:Mar 2014
It is a good point that you make about the halftime period. I would support having a 1-2 minute break at halftime to allow for teams to get themselves in order.

12-03-2014, 06:39 AM #5
Fordus Still n00b
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Status: Offline Posts:170 Threads:27 Joined:Apr 2014
I think 1 minute break is a good idea.

12-04-2014, 01:43 PM #6
Odoacer AC Operations Team
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Status: Offline Posts:154 Threads:16 Joined:Apr 2014
Response to Protest:

1) Regarding 1strule's connection issues: According to information in the replay file, 1strule had a steady 95-100ms ping with a ploss rate of about 1% (the normal range is 0.5 to 1). His ship did exhibit some spikes/hops, most of which occurred without anyone noticing because they were away from the action (and inconsequential). First let me say that all spikes are undesirable -- making the game more random and less skillful. Obviously we would prefer to never have them, but since that isn't reality we must 1) do what we can to mitigate them, and 2) try to judge when they have unfairly advantaged one team over the other. To mitigate them we must sub out players when they are clearly and frequently spiking. 1strule's spikes were frequent enough that I am directing referees to sub him out of future games if his connection proves unstable*. The same guidelines placed on Kweli apply to 1strule. CaDF should take note and bring a sub to games.

Now to judge the significance of each spike. I will address only the last three of the instances cited by MM since their explanations also apply to the others.

Quote:~18m50s (~26m22s): Big warp, 1strule's positioning is questionable for about 2 seconds while being the target of me and slucket
This was the largest spike, making it appear as if 1strule's ship warped out of danger. (Gif - ref's POV)

As I explained in the previous protest ruling, that is not exactly how spikes work. 1strule's computer stopped sending data for those 1.2 seconds but his ship was still moving normally from his point of view. Not only were his movements not transmitted, his shots were also not transmitted. A clip from 1strule's replay file shows that he fired on slucket during the spike -- certainly hitting him -- but those lasers were not seen by anyone else. (Gif - 1strule's POV) Considering the short duration of the spike, the fact that only two lasers were wasted on the ghost ship, the fact that the return fire was also lost, and the fact that MM subsequently cleared base and won the round, I am ruling this spike to be a non-factor in the outcome of the game.

Quote:~27m2s: Mini-spikes around wall while under fire; no resulting cap
(This happens in the last few seconds of the same gifs linked above.)

There were no noticeable spikes in this fight. What you're seeing is perfectly explainable by normal lag (not even high lag). The referee, DarkEvil, had a stable 40ms ping. slucket had a 50-60ms ping. From their perspectives, a missile shot like this one...

[Image: missile-dodge-refs-pov.png]

...looks like it might hit, if only by one pixel. However, 1strule's ship was moving in the right direction to dodge it and his ping was 100ms. That 40ms difference is more than enough to account for a 1 pixel miss. You can see for yourself in 1strule's view of the action (linked above). I examined three replays (ref's, mine, 1strule's) frame by frame and did not see anything out of line, with his movement, that missile, or any of the shots that followed it.

Quote:~28m8s (~34m45s): 1strule is exhibiting mini hops/spikes all the way through to the cap when it becomes 4-3; spikes in open field; at one point, I shoot two lasers with 1strule "dodging" down that miss but otherwise appear to hit, BUT subsequently in nearly the exact same circumstances (position and shot) and appears to take damage from 1 of 2 lasers of mine.

Again, there were no spikes in this case -- only lag. You're asking why he didn't take damage from these lasers...

[Image: two-lasers1-refs-pov.png]

...but did take damage from these lasers (one of them anyway).

[Image: two-lasers2-refs-pov.png]

See for yourself from his view. It's just a difference in angles plus a little bit of extra lag.


2) Regarding Astrok's two grenades: Astrok did not fire two grenades.


My ruling is that the result of the match between CaDF and MM stands. It will not be replayed.



* NB. By "connection proves unstable" I mean it shows repeated issues. I know a lot of people are watching Kweli carefully for his very next hop, but I can tell you from studying replays very closely that *everyone* hops at one time or another. One hop is not enough to prove a connection unstable.

12-04-2014, 02:22 PM #7
tengo Veteran
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Status: Offline Posts:431 Threads:31 Joined:Mar 2014
Amazing work GODoacer.

12-04-2014, 02:52 PM #8
akm n00b
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Status: Offline Posts:5 Threads:0 Joined:Oct 2014
looks like you spent a lot of time Odoacer. I commend you for quick and detailed response.

12-04-2014, 03:13 PM #9
eekum Veteran
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Status: Offline Posts:399 Threads:51 Joined:Mar 2014
I really like the work Odo puts into these.

I don't ever remember effort like this going into protests before.

Makes me feel like if something does arise you can really rely on Odo to have both teams back by explaining everything fairly/completely.

[Image: g3mWN22.png]

12-04-2014, 03:33 PM #10
tempest n00b
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Status: Offline Posts:42 Threads:12 Joined:May 2014
Agreed! Thanks for your time, Odo. I was expecting a POV from 1strule and it really helped shed light. I apologize about the Astrok with 2 grenades claim. I must have been really dazed to watch the replay time and time again, and that specific instance to "see" 2 nades from Astrok. Can we just forget that happened?

I will say that I could have dealt without this statement, however:
Quote:1strule's spikes were frequent enough that I am directing referees to sub him out of future games if his connection proves unstable*.

I don't know if this was a blanket statement, but if this is how you feel, it would have made a difference in our game when MM expressed concern.

Looking forward to the rest of the season. And I kind of enjoy reading your analyses of the match mechanics so I may need to come up with something down the road. Wink






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